Placing Collision Globes - not working.

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Placing Collision Globes - not working.

Postby Barry » Sun 07 Dec 2003 - 15:01

Still can't get the collision globes to work after placing them, with boat sailing through them. Not sure if a fault or how to correct?

Barry

Is there anyone else creating routes and/or making items for the sail or motorbpat sim other than the few who post?
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Postby Guest » Sun 07 Dec 2003 - 15:18

Barry,

I have been following your progress for a while. We may be in the same boat, so to speak.

I am developing a large real-life sailing area that covers the Indian River Lagoon in Florida. I have modeled the bottom as close as I can to the charts. This will provide a real challenge for future sail-simmers.

Given the realistic sailing hazzards, channel markers are necessary items. I cannot, however, get the spheres to work. Driving through the markers is most unrealistic.

I am not interested in racing and I am afraid that this sim is going in the wrong direction for me. The primative nature of the editing tools and non-working collision spheres is making me lose interest in my project.


John Forte
Melbourne, Florida
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Postby Barry » Sun 07 Dec 2003 - 16:01

John

Thanks for replying and great to read your post.
Don't give up on it yet. It's the only sail sim I know of that has the potential for realism and any type of model can fairly easily be made with "Blender". Have tried a few versions of the Ellesmere docks as one model with Blender about half mile or more across. Are you using "Blender" for making any of the models?

Have the other well known non-racing sail sim and have made several routes mainly for ships, and models in gmax, in the Trainz train simulator but these are on fixed track. But Stentec seems the best bet so far that I know of. Must be about 5 years since I started lookng for a sail simulator non-racing.

Alex mentioned I think that there was a problem with the collision globes in the 1st version and too small to work, so perhaps he may reply.
They must work somehow as the Stentec people I think used the route editor to make their routes and some items have collision properties.

Incidentally regarding your route based on the charts what height of tide do you use. With the river Mersey there is up to about 10 metres tidal range and low tide shows the mudflats and high tide up to about 30 feet of water over them. Perhaps they will intruce tidal height as well as current flow which they have now.

Stentec were working on version 2 of the route editor I think but nothing been mentioned lately, and they will be supporting the motorboat sim.
As you probably know next version with animation properties, working lighthouse perhaps, animated boats, etc. Eventually may be used in conjunction for obtaining a motorboat licence. Routes can be used for both sims so hopefully things will improve as regards what we can do on the creative side.

Perhaps Stentec could reply to advise on the current position as its a while since anything was posted.

Barry
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Postby Jeroen » Mon 08 Dec 2003 - 09:36

Hello John.

I think it's an error in the 3D Object Editor that is the cause of you problem. Could you send me a copy of your .S3D file so I can have a look to see I this error can be fixed easilly.

There have been some changes to the 3D Object Editor to make it work for Motorboat Simulator. But that version isn't on the website yet. When I get your model I'll see what I can do about the editor to make the collision spheres work again. The new version of the 3D Object Editor also has support for Level of Detail which will be added in the next update for Motorboat Simulator.

When it works I'll send you a copy of the new editor, and to anybody else who'd like to try it (A little beta testing by users doesn't hurt).

Hope I can help you guys soon but we're very busy at this moment with an other project for the dutch ANWB to create a navigation program with digital charts which takes up a lot of our development team (3 developers (of 5) are working on that program).

But when I get the model I'll have a look at it as soon as possible.
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Postby Guest » Mon 08 Dec 2003 - 16:56

Barry,

Yes, I use Blender to model for Sail/MotorBoat sims. I would much prefer to use Gmax but I can understand the reasons given for it not being available. Another option would be to contact Richard at Amabilis to see if he would be interested in adding this sim to the collection in his excellant 3d modeling program. I believe he is also in the UK.

There are no tides to contend with in south Florida. The Indian River Lagoon, despite it's name, is not really a river. It is a long (100+ miles), narrow (.25 to 3 miles) salt water estuary between the mainland and the barrier islands that are along the Atlantic coast. The Intercostal Waterway (a highway in the water) runs through the lagoon. There are many marinas and points of interest along the waterway but there is no dramatic scenery. Florida is, after all, pretty flat.

My thinking was that I would model the waterway in my home county (Brevard, 70 miles long) with all the bridges and navagation aids. I would then detail my home port (Melbourne Harbor Marina). If each person with knowledge of a point of interest on the waterway would detail it, we could collectively create a fantastic sailing area.

I have the first section completed and sailable without objects. It turned out better than I expected. The second section will include Port Canaveral which is a large deep water port that supports many cruise ships and military vessels. It also will connect the Indian River to the Atlantic so we can go into the ocean without using the Boat command. The next step is to add the navaids and bridges. This is where the collision spheres com into the picture.


Jeroen,

Thank you very much for your offer but I no longer have the model. When I couldn't get the spheres to work I erased it and concentrated on the sailing area. I would be happy, however, to try again when you have some improvement made in the editor.


John
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Postby Barry » Mon 08 Dec 2003 - 22:25

John

from your description it sounds as if it will be a project worth continuing with and interesting navigation.

Took me ages to learn gmax. About a year and had given up on it. I think the initial problem was figuring out which key did what. Worked through a tutorial on Trainz site which got me into it eventually. Just lack of info I think initially.

With Blender have been experimenting making Ellesmere docks in one piece over half a mile or so. Working in plan view but Blender started in side view at the same time and had to keep pulling up the vertices. Gave up that idea. Perhaps not enough ram at 128 with windows ME. Seems OK for the smaller models though. or for stretching quays to any length. Tried one up to about 7 miles in length as just a box.

After more boats in animated scenes, coming and going bringing it to life. No realism at all with just the one boat in a scene., for what I am interested in. Bit of a puzzle. Motorboat sim may get better hopefully and will buy it when the fuller retail version becomes available.

The simulations seems to be a bit in the doldrums at present but the potential for realism is there, so case of just sticking with them I suppose. I also deleted the model I made but should be an easy matter I imagine for Stentec to put collision spheres in the sailsim object editor onto any model to see what happens and why, and update it with a working version.

Barry
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Postby Aal » Tue 09 Dec 2003 - 11:15

Hi Barry'

It is indeed a bug in the object designer. Before they had a big sphere that enabled the collosion detection. They 'improved' that so that you don't have to define that anymore. But now that sphere is far to small so the actual detection is not enabled.
What to do is to open the obejct file in saty wordpad and increase the size of the first sphere, which is the 'overal' sphere. I'm on a bussines trip at the moment so I don't have the details here. I'll send you an example in the weekend
I'm looking forward to sailing in your scenery
/ALex
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Postby Barry » Tue 09 Dec 2003 - 21:08

Thanks Alex.

I opened the file with wordpad and had a look but wasn't sure what to alter.

Look forward to further info later.

Barry
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Postby Jeroen » Wed 10 Dec 2003 - 10:24

The tip Alex made should also work.

When you open a S3D file in the object editor you should look for something that looks like this, it should be in the top part of the file:
Code: Select all
CollisionSphere = (
    0s
    0s
    1.4s
    3.6s)
  CollisionSpheres.Items = (
    (
      (
        0s
        0s
        -1.25s)
      1.25s)
    (
      (
        0s
        0s
        0s)
      1.25s)
    (
      (
        0s
        0s
        1.25s)
      1.25s))

These are the collision spheres. The collision spheres are divided into two parts. First you've got the main collision sphere (CollisionSphere) after that there's a list with sub spheres (CollisionSpheres.Items) in this list are the collission sphere you've created with the object editor. A collision sphere consists of 4 components (X, Y, Z and the radius):
Code: Select all
CollisionSphere = (
    0s   -> x position
    0s   -> y position
    1.4s -> z position
    3.6s -> radius)

The purpose of the main collision sphere is to define a container for all collision spheres. In Sail Simulator (and Motorboat Simulator) the collision detection algorithm first looks for a main sphere and when two main spheres collide the algorithm then checks the subspheres if there is a real collision. This is done the prevent the simulation from checking all subspheres every simulation step.

The problem with the Object Editor that we've tried to let the editor calculated the main sphere by itself but that algorithm fails to calculate a coorect sphere (we have fixed this in the new version). A temporary sollution for this problem is to calculate the main sphere yourself and entering these values by hand using a text editor. The main sphere must be large enough so it can contain all it's subspheres. A good method for determining the main sphere is to add a temporary subsphere in the object editor and setting the values of this sphere so that is contains all other subspheres, remember these values, throw away the subsphere and entering the rememberd values by hand.

It's not the easiest method but it works.

When thing cool down here (beginning of january) I'll finish the new editor and you can have a copy of that.

Hope this helps, when there still are question please feel free to ask :).

Jeroen
Last edited by Jeroen on Thu 11 Dec 2003 - 09:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Barry » Wed 10 Dec 2003 - 20:26

Thanks Jeroen.

At least I know what the probem is now and will have to experiment and see what happens.

Barry
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Postby Barry » Wed 10 Dec 2003 - 23:54

Tried the method out and eventually got it to work afer a few computer lockups. Put a row of 1 metre?spheres along two edges of 10 metre quay and made a large sphere to cover all the spheres. opened with wordpad and copied the line of values. Deleted large sphere in object editor and pasted values into "collisionsphere" line. The trouble is left a bracket in middle of line which I think caused the computer problems. Seems to work OK after I found out. but a bit of a tedious method. Maybe OK for small items and floating boats, etc.

Barry
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Postby Jeroen » Thu 11 Dec 2003 - 09:10

I know it's not the best method but it works until the new version is finished :)
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Postby Barry » Fri 12 Dec 2003 - 23:45

Jeroen wrote:I know it's not the best method but it works until the new version is finished :)


Once you get into it works quite well. The boats I made now all have collision properties with a satifying "clunk" when the drivable boat knocks into them. The sailing barge was about 30 metres so there doesn't appear to be a limit to the intitial sphere?

The quays go up to 400 metres but maybe best to limit the size to 50 metre section for collision properties as 400 metres that would need a huge sphere?

The very big question is will I ever be able to drive/sail any boats I make (not online). May be tempted then to make some more and bring the scene "to life"?

Barry
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