If any are building large routes.Any discussion/help for ME

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If any are building large routes.Any discussion/help for ME

Postby Barry » Sun 10 Jul 2005 - 14:04

If anyone is still building large routes - Any discussion, any help for ME.

As have always gone out of my way to try and help other members of the forum who had queries, so how about some discussion about making routes, and indirectly some help for me?

Large routes are a bit of a problem as there is a limit to the amount of height bars you can use which I think is around 2400.

The last route I made for download I kept under 2000 height bars, but had to extend the spacing to 50 metres to cover the 50 square miles.

With 5 river systems and numerous smaller rivers that causes quite a problem. Each pixel for the river is now 50 metres and the rivers are only about 20 metres wide say in parts in real life.

The height slopes up from the rivers but how do we place the bank contours.

Directly next to the river or a few pixels away sloping up to say 5 metres.
That then is probaby still too wide.
Or directly next to the river pixels.
Again it all depends on the direction of the estuary or river.
Straight across the map or straight down we have a straight line.
If the river is winding as most are, and not just straight, the edges on the dem map appear as a series of steps.

The join of the step then needs an extra pixel.
So realistic chart heights on large routes I don't think are possible in rivers.

Anyway tried the whole of the North Wales coastline covering from Point of Ayr around to Barmouth.
75 square miles and had to set the distance to 60 metres with height bars just over 2000.
Using a digital UK map I bought from local supermarket it gives the sandbanks and land contours which seems good enough.

I also have a paper Imray sea chart of this area but to make a map with all the sea depths and channels marks is not practical due to the size of the area and the 60 metre pixels.

Also a few questions on sea charts how are they read as regards creating a route. Chart datum, the lowest astronomical low water depth. So what do the figures refer to.

Depth at low water, from chart datum, but at what tide height as ranges from 9.3 metres at Liverpool down to around 5 at Barmouth on the chart. A seperate list is sown for each area. The figures underlined I know are the amount of the drying banks showing above low water at chart datum.

Next getting the latitude and longitude, I drew two lines across the large map I pieced together from sections, from corner to corner, to get the centre, then went back to the digital CD which gives the position for any position of the mouse on it.
Entered the latitude and longitude but when I tested the test route, the boat was a good way out.
The centre was

Latitude - 52 degrees 58.4 North
Longitude - 4 degrees 4.3 West


Wasn't even sure how to type these into the dem box to show the minutes, etc as well as degrees, as just numbers needed after the degrees.

Do I Type in 52.584 and 4.43.

I got as far as getting all the coastline outlined and put on some of the heights up to 1000 feet. The actual heights go up to 3000 feet.

The other route for download I made the Snowdon Mountain range OK up to 3000 feet but for this one I will have to think again.

Need to try and find a better system for sloping the land up from rivers and shallow coastal areas as have some jagged edges of 60 metres each, just on surface, followed by a short space of water then land.

The dem map slopes the land from height to height, but if there is a large gap between contours may slope down, before rising up?

Anglesey and the Menai Straits came out OK, but I will only work from the terrain map, and just use the sea chart for reference, otherwise would take me years to make, and only intend spending a week or 2 on it, and add content bit by bit leisurely over the months.

Will probably start again and get the terrain map sections clearer just showing contours, sea and rivers, and place names, to make it easier.
No need to put all the contours on as some can't be seen from the rivers and sea anyway, and maybe add spot heights up to 3000 feet and contours at 200 feet, 600, 1000, 1600, 2000, 3000 FEET.

Keeping it as a square as on other routes I tried a while ago, the space altered for some reason after saving so been using just a square since.

Incidentally the dem size for 75 miles square..75 miles square equals 120701 metres.

Divide by 60 metre spaces, equals 2011 height bars.
Then piece together the required maps to get 75 square miles and work over it in dem map.

Uconeer is a nice free little program for converting all sorts of values.

If no response to this post I will just delete it as I have done with many of my other posts.

Barry
Last edited by Barry on Mon 11 Jul 2005 - 16:22, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby bobhog » Sun 10 Jul 2005 - 16:30

Barry,

Not sure about the lat and long figures, but I think that what you are quoting is degrees and minutes, you will probably need to convert that to degrees and decimals of a degree (ie. 30 mins would be .5) I am only suggesting the way I would interpret it, and I could be quite wrong.
Bob Hoggarth.
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Postby Barry » Sun 10 Jul 2005 - 17:12

Thank Bob- I forgot that and it may solve it.
You can then see the position of the boat as you sail, that is if I get it right next time.

Should you try the Isle of Man should be OK on one route.
I got a digital CD only £8 from Asda, at there special price.
Atlas of GB fifth edition and covers the whole of GB and includes terrain but also shows sandbanks, etc.

Just measured it at around 30 miles by 12 so would easily fit into one route. You just make the dem map that size height bars x space in metres.


Thanks

Barry

:)
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Postby bobhog » Mon 11 Jul 2005 - 18:59

Hi Barry,
Downloaded Uconeer, looks very useful, thanks for the info.

I have decided to have another go at the Isle of Man, and have made a start. I also have the Fifth Edition of the Interactive Atlas and have decided to use that for the dem building. This is the image I have saved, the centre of the map has lat/long coordinates of 54.23733N and 4.53275W
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When I open Dem Builder I get the folloing panel, I do not understand what the various values required represent, can you help me?
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Postby Barry » Mon 11 Jul 2005 - 21:44

Hi Bob

At least you were one step ahead of me, as I had the latitude and longitude wrong until I read your post.

Before you start check whether you can save a dem map OK.
Just make a few circles of different heights on any blank dem and save the file with a name.

It may bring up the message you don't have right to access this file or similar. If you are using windows xp you will need to alter the compatible setting on computer for Scenery Designer, to windows ME or 98 or 2000, but not xp.

Also if you double click the dem map to open it, you may get similar notice coming up when trying to save it again. You need to open the Scenery Designer, dem section first, then scroll to your dem map and open it. Maybe then do a test save.

Took me a while to find that out.

To get the dem map size I wanted with the contours I used the second to highest view in the atlas. This gives all the contours at 200 feet intervels, about 61 metres apart. Spot heights are in feet. The very highest is the same with contours only bigger. Just checking it as I type - tools then zoom level. Next in layers I just left on Settlements, Water features, contours. If you leave all the details on the contours are hidden by roads, etc.

If you save the screen picture as a file on computer this worked out at 20 miles across I think. I use Irfan View (free) to alter sizes, etc. Also a paint program off the scanner which enables me to join the map sections.

The file of 20 miles was I think 800 pixels, run the mouse across it in irfanview, For the 75 miles it worked out 800 x 3 and 3 quarters 3000 x 3000. I placed the 800 pixel (20 mile) sections on it to get 75 miles.

Sorry about the long intro but it explains the rest.
You need to make the dem map the same size as the map section/s you are using. If you have a bitmap file of map say that covers 20 miles of map you need to make the dem map the same size.

So it just needs the width height and spacing filling in.
I use a square as had problems with rectangles etc.

So the width and height is the same figure for me.
Once you know the map size of the file.
Just divide the spacing you wish to use into it.
Default is 25 metres. I made my spacing 50 metres to get the big route for download. Maybe stick to 25 metres the default.

Just needs the width and height entering. map size divided by 25 metres.
I think the maximum is 2400. But should imagine keep it under 2000 should be OK or thereabouts.

Thats about it - just checking dem builder - After making the dem it's dem button at top, set background and scroll to your map, open and it should fill the blank pink dem with the right size map.
Just make sure the map size file is exactly the same as the dem size.

Just a matter of tracing along the contours then and giving them heights.
Best maybe to try it out with any dem first, simple island with circles, or whatever in case you meet poblems.

Alex has a tutorial for route making (aal) on his site bit I think he uses a full paint program which I don't have.

You just leave the projection and reference in dem window the same at the default. At least I do.

Just post again as you progress.

Barry

:)
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Postby bobhog » Mon 11 Jul 2005 - 21:55

Thanks Barry,

I'm just going to print off your answer and have a go. I will keep you informed of progress (or lack of!!!!)
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Postby Barry » Mon 11 Jul 2005 - 22:21

Bob don't worry if it all goes wrong.
Just take it in stages.
Once you get one bit right just progress to the next.

Still trying to work out how I make the sea chart map match to the digital Atlas map, which are slightly different scales.

Got myself a bit lost on that at present.
----------------------
Looked at a few web sites and I think the chart datum height on sea chart (low tide) plus water depth is actual height, so I am learning bits as I go along.

It gives different tide height for each area of the welsh coast.

Barry

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Postby Barry » Mon 11 Jul 2005 - 23:09

Bob just found at that windows paint works just as well for merging maps.
I mentioned that the file saved on the second from top in Atlas was about 20 miles across. Works out at 800 pixels I think.

Made a bitmap windows paint, image,attributes 1600 x 1600 pixels.
Then edit/paste from... and scroll to 20 mile map file.

Just move the maps into place. Then save. That will give you 40 miles square. Maybe make it less for I.O.M. to fit your map size. You can slide the maps to any postion on the large bitmap blank.

If you open the Atlas file with widows paint...image/attributes. That will give the pixel size. Measure to check size in Atlas digital map. About 20 miles. Make the windows blank bitmap to size you want and just slide the maps to match and to fill the space.

Only just found out to join maps with window paint so I am learning as I go along. Its a simple option.

You can enlarge the view in the dem Scenery Designer.


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